Community Checkup

66 responses so far ↓

• 1 Tracie // Dec 8, 2007 at 3:55 pm

  What trips me out is that any other time Christians (myself included) feel separation of church and state is heavily misused by some in secular society … yet now these two want to use it as an excuse (and a flimsy one at that) to keep their [alleged] wrongdoings private?! Sigh.

• 2 V // Dec 11, 2007 at 2:34 pm

  I agree that the First Amendment argument is non-existent. And, while I do think the books need to be turned over—I do so for completely secular reasons. The books should be turned over solely for purposes of determining whether these mega-millionaires are masking their for-profit enterprise as a not-for-profit charity.

  That said, I find interesting the lack of accountability being assigned to the gift-givers. I mean, if these mega-ministries are raking in the dough hand-over-fist, at what point do we hold accountable the folks handing it over? Not legally acountable but why cap the amount these men are able to receive? Why arbitrarily prevent the gift-giver from giving? How high is the cap? Who decides? Why is the “decider” chosen? Is he/she in a better position to judge?

  These mega-ministries have made religion their business. How is this business different from any other business formed under the supply and demand principles?

  Why should we penalize the Creflo Dollars of the world? Should we really adopt a position that implies that we as a people are too dense to determine who is worthy of our money?

  Aren’t we capable of choosing where we tithe? Isn’t it a better positon that we determine on our own if the preacher/pastor embodies what we believe and support him or her? And, if the Theft Yo’ Dollars and the Eddie Wrongs of the world are not for you, then hold your money. I find it difficult to say that a spiritual leader has no business owning luxury items. Why? Is it realistic to think barring a single profession or several professions from owning luxury items is an answer?

  Can we force preachers/pastors to be better men? T.D. Jakes has said that a church can only find a person for the pulpit in the pews and it can only find a person for the pews in the streets. I think we’d be better served to remember that these men are just that. And, if these men, or any other for that matter, are living a lifestyle with which we disagree then we do not have to fund it. From what I recall, Atlanta has plenty of churches from which to choose.

• 3 Mike // Dec 11, 2007 at 9:20 pm

  V,
  There is a key distinction between your perspective on this and mine. You view mega-churches as businesses that should be treated as such. I don’t. I’d be with your line of reasoning all the way for businesses (see my post on BET and responsibility).

  Sure, some of these joints are being run as typical corporate empires but my point is that they should not be. Living in material excess is not in conflict with typical businesses–in fact it’s the ultimate goal; but with religion this way of living is in direct conflict with their goal. So in my mind, running a church like a business where the sky is the limit in terms of how much money you make and what kind of nice toys you have is a flawed philosophy from the jump.

  The difference in our perspectives also applies to your comments about responsibility of preachers vs. their church members. For a typical business, yes, those funding it through consumption bear a large part of the responsibility for doing so. You can’t expect businesses to have much of a moral compass. You should expect that of churches and preachers though. Morality and spirituality is exactly what they are supposed to be in the “business” of.

• 4 Sade // Dec 16, 2007 at 1:01 am

  Just because they’re Christians, there supposed to be broke? That’s ridiculous! Jesus and his disciples lived, traveled, and ate due to the tithes and offering of his followers. Our pastors preach, counsel, and live under constant scrunity of heathen embeciles, they deserve to live a life of luxury. Christ died so that we would no longer have to suffer!

• 5 Mike // Dec 16, 2007 at 1:16 am

  Sade,
  In the post, I clearly mentioned that nobody expects these preachers to be poor (including me). There’s a whole lot of middle ground between owning a gated mansion and living on the streets. As for your last sentence, all I can say is that I wholeheartedly disagree with you if you are in any way referring to money.

• 6 STEVEM // Jan 3, 2008 at 6:54 pm

  I didnt know that we were now a communist nation where peoples income should be limited. This has to be wone of the most dumb and thoughtless articles I have ever read on any blog

  I motion that we should limit the income of dumb bloggers

• 7 Mike // Jan 3, 2008 at 7:22 pm

  How did you come to the communist conclusion? I said that the salary cap should be self-imposed, not imposed by the nation. And I make no money from blogging. Sorry to disappoint your motion.

• 8 STEVEM // Jan 4, 2008 at 8:36 pm

  Dude,
  The very fact that you are endorsing that Govt take a look at these ministries for no other reason than the fact that you have a problem with their doctrine is de-facto communism. That is the doggone point.

• 9 Pabs // Jan 4, 2008 at 8:38 pm

  Hi all

• 10 Pabs // Jan 4, 2008 at 8:40 pm

  Hi again. In reply to STEVEM.

  I think you missed the point that the other bloggers were making. As far as I can see, these men are guilty on multiple fronts, i.e. as “non-profit” organisations according to the law, and according to Scripture which clearly states that we should not “peddle the Word of God for profit” 2 Corinthians 2:17. As an example, the Word also rebukes such men in Jude 1:11, stating in chapter 4- “For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you.” As we read on he also states in chapter 11- “Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into BALAAM’S error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.” I would recommend strongly that you do some research into “Balaam’s” error, to see how it applies to these modern day mega-ministries and its associated pastors.

  STEVEM, there’s one other question I’d like to ask, since you seem to be an advocate of Capitalism. How are the fruits of Capitalism more in line with God’s will than those of Communism? As far as I’m aware, Communism has some Godly principles that we could certainly adopt, particularly those of us in the Pentecostal movement who seem to be so focused on material prosperity. The problem I see with Communist ideals is that they seem to have left God out of the picture, i.e. they are a counterfeit ideology. I think that the Communist principle of a more balanced wealth distribution is very much in line with Scripture, and ultimately God’s will. This is reflected in Paul’s letter in 2 Corinthians 8 chapters 12 to 15- “For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have.

  Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be EQUALITY. At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality, as it is written: “He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little.”

  Very interesting, particularly the part that says- “the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have.” This is very much in total contrast to the “Pentecostal” concept of giving beyond one’s means, (in some reported cases with credit cards) and in return reaping a “harvest”.

  If God was truly some celestial slot machine, why would Paul state- “Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are HARD PRESSED”. HARD PRESSED?? Surely not, after all, don’t these pulpit pimps preach that I will be blessed in abundance as a result of my generosity?

  Sorry bro, look at the fruits and tell me if these men, as representatives of the Kingdom of God, and ultimately imitators of Christ, (as they’re called to be, and more so as Pastors)in any way reflect His humility and modesty. Donkey vs Rolls Royce, hmmmmm!!

  Just a thought.

• 11 Ace // Jan 5, 2008 at 3:52 pm

  Thank you, Pabs. I appreciate the references to the Scripture. Humility, modesty, and probably “honesty” are not the strongest traits of these two pastors. However, the smell of self-centeredness, greed and phoniness stinks to high heaven.

• 12 KM // Jan 5, 2008 at 7:28 pm

  Dear Sade,

  Riddle me this?

  Would Jesus Christ, as you understand him, walk into a roomful of lower-middle class to poor people, take enough of their money, walk out, and furnish for himself an extravagantly wealthy and lavish lifestyle that went beyond anything he would ever need in lieu of “giving a group of hopeful people the word of God” while those people that he took from remained poor and hopeful?

  Didn’t Jesus ride into Damascus on a donkey? Didn’t he get questioned everywhere he went because he did NOT look like royalty, or a prophet, or like the son of a so-called GOD? Was he not a vagabond with no where to lay his head? Was he not unshaven with hair like “lambwool?” What about this man was even remotely synonymous with “materially prosperous or extravagant”…and moreso, capitalizing on giving the have nots of the world the word of God and getting rich on it…Jesus never did this!!!!!!!!

  These “pimps” are greedy capitalists. They have identified a “target group”, a group of hopeful, empty people who need to believe in something greater than themselves and their everyday lives…these are usually broken and on some level, emotionally traumatized or hurt people who need hope and need to believe. Along come these pimps, they have a “product”, there is high demand. There product is not dope, it’s “hope”…for the broken spirits out there, and those who need to believe in something greater than themselves and their everyday lives and realities, which might otherwise depress them, they follow these pimps, and follow them as if they are “Gods” themselves. They pay for their wisdom and they finance their lifestyles, meanwhile settling on being told to “hope” and “believe” and “pray” and “work on your life” and “give.” It is truly a shame, you finance an empire and in most cases, once they have convince you to feel good and feel better “believing” and forever “enduring”
  (while your life never changes and you never get what your pastor gets…), you are done, bought, and their empire is established.

  This is wicked and is it basically the infrastructure of megachurch Christianity today. This is spoken of in Holy Scripture as this church is NOT consistent with the BIBLE: in the book of Acts, 20:30,31, Jesus said to the apostle Luke that, “Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after THEM. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and days with tears…

  This travesty was enough to make Jesus Christ himself cry.

• 13 STEVEM // Jan 6, 2008 at 8:20 am

  Pasb:
  I’ll have to respond to your post in bits and pieces due to its’ length and the fact that I have little time so bear with me .

  You said:
  “As far as I can see, these men are guilty on multiple fronts, i.e. as “non-profit” organisations according to the law, and according to Scripture which clearly states that we should not “peddle the Word of God for profit” 2 Corinthians 2:17. ”

  Well explain to me exactly how far you can see for one thing you are not intimately familliar with these ministries and their books so you really have no clue as to whthere or not they are in compliance with the law as non profits. Those of them that have been audited such as Benny Hinn and Joyce Meiers have been given a clean bill by the IRS so on what basis do you assert that they are guilty on many fronts?

  Since you are so versed in scripture why dont you pay attention to those scriptures that warn against “evil surmisals” IE making accusations without evidence .Dont you think its kind of phariseeical to violate biblical laws while supposedly trying to uphold the same bible ?

  “1 Timothy 6:4
  He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, [B]evil surmisings,[/B] ”

  You said :

  “Didn’t Jesus ride into Damascus on a donkey? Didn’t he get questioned everywhere he went because he did NOT look like royalty, or a prophet, or like the son of a so-called GOD? Was he not a vagabond with no where to lay his head? Was he not unshaven with hair like “lambwool?” What about this man was even remotely synonymous with “materially prosperous or extravagant”…and moreso, capitalizing on giving the have nots of the world the word of God and getting rich on it…Jesus never did this!!!!!!!!”

  All I can say after reading the above is that your bible scholarship is pretty pitiful

  1)Jesus allowede a woman to pour perfume worth 8 months of salary to be poured on him and the only “communist” who complianed was Judas the thief
  2)Jesus dined with the rich and the wealthy such as Zaccheus
  3) Jesus wore a seamless coat which the soldiers cast lots for
  4) Jesus had a house apparently you are not familiar with John 1:39

  “38Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou? 39He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour. ”

  Jesus was never a vagabond, he was simply an Itinerant eveanglesist and his statement to the young man who followed him about “foxes having holes and birds havings nests” was simply a test to the young man who swore his willingness. What Jesus was saying was that as far as you can see I have no place to stay are you willing to sacrifice your comfort and security and come on this journey of faith?

  Suffice to say, Jesus didnt share your communist ideals but I’ll have to respond to the rest of your points that later

• 14 STEVEM // Jan 6, 2008 at 10:00 am

  Hey Pabs
  Apologies , In my response I mistook some of KM’s comments for your. However my overall point remains the same.

  There is nothing communist about the Christian Faith. The ability to prosper at the individual level is a God ordained right and Communism simply has no concept of individual rights . Communists basically see having wealth as a sin and one needs not look far on this forum to see that many so called Christians have bought into this ideology .

  I can provide you with literally thousands of scripture thats clearly show that it is God’s will for those who follow him and his precepts prosper even if others around them dont. Certainly there is plenty of biblical emphasis on sharing with the poor however there is no biblical mandate to become poor or that your becoming poor one way or the other helps poor

  I am yet bto meet a poor person who is able to help other poor people in a meaningful way have you ?

  In any case do be aware that Joyce Meier Ministries fed over 11 million people last year across the globe. All the other nministries have similar programs and more so I am not really sure why you people complain about these ministries. Just because the media chooses to focus on Rolls Royce and commodes hardly means that there isnt much more to these ministries . The amount of money Creflo Dollar Ministries give away every year could buy housands of Rolls Royces so why dont you and your buddies focus on that

  In Judaism there is a concept called Lashon Hara http://www.karaitejudaism.org/talks/Lashon_Hara_in_the_Tanakh.htm
  I suggest you read the link thoroughly

• 15 STEVEM // Jan 6, 2008 at 10:03 am

  Lastly thi was written by a friend of mine but Ibelieve it speaks aptly to the issue at hand

  The old story of the buzzard and the hummingbird flying over a desert comes to mind, the former looking for a dead carcass and the latter for a sweet flower. In the end both desires were met. The moral: You’ll find what you are looking for, whether that target be Death or Life. Proverbs 11:27, “Whoever diligently seeks good seeks favor, but evil comes to him who searches for it.” Also Matthew 7:7, “Seek and you will find.”

  When I view these six ministries I am looking for that which is Life-giving, and I find abundant evidence that multitudes of lives are being impacted in that positive direction. Others look for points of controversy and reasons for justifying a call for their demise, and their quest will also be amply rewarded with evidence!

  The Scriptures refer to an “evil eye” (Mark 7:22, NKJV) as well as a “good eye” (Matthew 6:22). Interestingly, these have been translated by Bible scholars at times as a “stingy eye” and a “generous eye.” Another interpretation is that they have to do with one’s outlook or viewpoint. Is one looking for a “good report” or an “evil report”? Remember the story of the twelve spies searching out the Promised Land? Two saw things entirely different from their ten counterparts! Remember, you will find what you are hunting for, be it Death or Life! The pursuit of what you are specifically wanting to observe, good or bad, will be accompanied with confirming signs following!

  Titus 1:15 reads, “To the pure, ALL THINGS are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, NOTHING is pure…” Matthew 5:8 reminds us that “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall SEE God.” An impure heart sees man in his Adamic failings, and their skewed judgment of such a one is that “nothing is pure.” On the other hand, “to the pure,” i.e. those who possess a “pure…heart,” they instead see God and His perfection, planted in the person of Christ residing within the hearts of those whose outward conduct has yet to fully measure up to the standards of that One who freely “declares righteous the ungodly” (Romans 4:5).

  On another note, I believe is that some of these ministries are being investigated for their administrative costs; overhead which is unfortunately a necessity with every organization. A further issue is that the dollar numbers that are being received by these ministries are staggering when compared to the typical pre-modern era church on the street corner whose idea of big spending was the stocking of the neighborhood food pantry. What is forgotten is that money is relative to the task at hand and to the perspective of the person or ministry handling it. What one may consider as “much,” another would view as “miniscule.” One man’s jet may be nothing but a Gospel burro in his eyes — a tool to efficiently get from point A to Z, while in the view of another it may border on gross waste and extravagance. Again, it all boils down to one’s relative perspective.

  What is lost in this inquiry are some of the greater facts: Among these six “pimping” ministries are included those that without fanfare partner with and underwrite the largest prison outreaches in America, the largest African and South American evangelistic outreaches, not to mention a plethora of innummerable indigenous “niche” ministries. I can’t speak in behalf of all of them but I can say with certainty that some of these ministries are wholly responsible for funding some of the most effective and unique Gospel outreaches known in the Kingdom. Where they can’t personally go, nor where they aren’t specifically equipped and commissioned, they target a vast portion of their funds to support. This covenanting with strategic ministries is a major emphasis with at least some of “the Grassley Six.” Sounds like the “pimps” have a heart and a wallet that allows them to reach those that otherwise would be under-funded and forgotten in terms of evangelism and discipleship. If effective fruitbearing is a criteria would to God that He’d raise up more “pimps” with deep pockets combined with a heart to invest in both visible as well as unheralded Kingdom ministries!

  I’d like to close with these insightful posts from saint Paul, beginning in Philippians 1:15-18,

  “Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. WHAT THEN? Only that IN EVERY WAY, WHETHER IN PRETENSE or in truth, CHRIST IS PREACHED; AND IN THIS I REJOICE, yes, and will rejoice.”

  Even if some of the “Grassley Six” are self-serving, I with Paul’s admonition, [i]“will rejoice”[/i] that [i]“Christ is preached.”[/i] To those who are quick to administer the lethal cocktail into the veins of these six ministries might Paul’s counsel also be appealed to in 1 Corinthians 4:5,

  [i]“Therefore [u]judge nothing before the time[/u], [u]until the Lord comes[/u], who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s [b]praise[/b] will come from God.”[/i]

  Has the Lord [i]“come”?[/i] If not, then why the rush to [i]“judge…before the time”?[/i] Also, note that Christ is coming to [i]“praise”[/i] His faithful representatives. It says nothing here of criticizing or penalizing or denigrating, though in the eyes or viewpoint of others with a far lesser view such a determination of “guilty” would appear to be readily discernible based upon their “evidence” stash. In juxtaposition to this [i]“evil eye”[/i] it seems to me that Christ has a view to commendation, not condemnation (see Romans 8:1). Ahhh, the [i]“good eye.”[/i] How refreshing and life-giving.

  In Scripture I am often reminded that I can remove the barrister’s wig and put the gavel down. Thankfully, it is not my position in Christ to judge. Another who is perfect in judgment has rightfully earned that post. John 5:22, [i]“For [u]the Father judges no one[/u], but has committed ALL judgment to the Son.”[/i] Mercifully, only through the merits of His redeeming work of salvation and of our gracious inclusion “in Him” by the Father, it seems that Christ in the aforementioned verse in 1 Corinthians 4:5 rejoices in proclaiming His subjects [i]“praise”[/i] worthy. I find that viewpoint, and depth of love and acceptance, awe inspiring.

  I hope the above helps if not well I leave you critics to God

• 16 Pabs // Jan 7, 2008 at 8:25 am

  In reply to STEVEM.

  You said: “Well explain to me exactly how far you can see for one thing you are not intimately familiar with these ministries and their books”

  Now, by this remark I assume you are intimately familiar with those ministries and their books?

  (For all I know you’re probably Creflo himself, posting in secret) just kidding.

  You also posted: “If effective fruit bearing is a criteria would to God that He’d raise up more “pimps” with deep pockets combined with a heart to invest in both visible as well as unheralded Kingdom ministries!”

  Hmmm, well, it’s actually those who prostitute themselves to these pimps who cough up the bill to sustain their “charities”. I am sure that the wide majority of them are genuine, and do some wonderful voluntary work under the shadow of these ministries, no doubt. In the name of preserving the ministry’s tax-exempt status, a few measly morsels here and there is worth the pain, considering many more tax-free millions can be generated and abused. Hey, we’re still waiting for Benny’s promised Orphanage in Mexico, (what should have been the product of a very generous “love” offering).

  Look Steve, I have nothing personal against you, and you made some worthwhile points in your post. The problem I have, is that I have a big mouth, and I am in no way politically correct. Secondly, I do not adhere to the Pentecostal code of silence, which is so prevalent in our churches today. You know the game- “OH, don’t question or say anything against this man because He is anointed”. Who am I to question, right?

  Now, what I find interesting in my conversations with fellow believers is, that deep inside the vast majority of them feel the same about these men, no matter what side of the argument they may fall. The only difference between them is that those seemingly in favour are afraid to QUESTION!! Here’s a common one- “Maaaaan there is something not right about ______, but I don’t want to judge, and anyway, they bring thousands to the Lord, perform amazing miracles, so who am I to say anything”.

  Consider the following in the book of Mathew- “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.-”Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!”

  1 Corinthians 5:11 also comes to mind- “But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat”.

  At first glance one could say that Paul himself, arguably the most influential New Testament figure aside from our Lord Jesus Christ, fell into judgement. Fancy that, you and I, (assuming we are walking in righteousness) must not associate with a BROTHER that is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. For crying out loud, I’m not even allowed to share a meal with the man. That’s pretty harsh judgement there PAUL!! and many in our congregations would certainly qualify to disqualify.

  So in your eyes, what is judgement? Because it seems that you are accusing others and me on this blog of condemning these men. Let me tell you that Creflo, just like Benny, and dare I say even Anton Lavey, can be saved at their last breath, and I would never even wish to deny them that right. We have no right to condemn anyone, but we certainly have the right, according to scripture, to protect the Lord’s flock from the sexually immoral, the greedy, idolaters, slanderers, drunkards or swindlers, and I’m sure the list can go on and on. They’ll be known by their fruits, and aside from their hunger for money, their much publicised heretical sermons are more than enough evidence for me. It’s not I that judges them, but the Word. Just put two and two together and it is plain to see.

  History is a great teacher, and the Pentecostal movement in particular has had extreme example after extreme example of high profile, false prophets, yet we remain in our slumber. Marjoe Gortner ring a bell?

  There is one conclusion that I think we can both agree on, and that is that there is only one truth, the Word.

  All else is corruptible, so let us take the example of the Berean Jews, and put everything we hear from the pulpit to the test.

• 17 Pabs // Jan 7, 2008 at 8:31 am

  OH and by the way.

  In reply to this from STEVEM- “I am yet to meet a poor person who is able to help other poor people in a meaningful way have you”

  Yes, and they weren’t Christians

• 18 Pabs // Jan 7, 2008 at 8:49 am

  One more thing, didn’t Creflo tell CNN that he didn’t own his private jet?

  Well, he lied-

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyfIWoDcLD0&feature=related

  Forward to 3:00

  Or maybe it’s his big boasting mouth that’s to blame.

• 19 STEVEM // Jan 7, 2008 at 10:05 am

  Pabs:
  Thanks for your response

  Well, I think it would be good for you to read my last post again. The point was that people see what they are looking to see . For instance the inconsistency between what Creflo told CNN and what is posted on your youtube clip to you is proof that he is either a liar or a big mouth , to me it was simply the kind of talk that people do among friends whom they are comfortable . For instance I may casually refer to “my administrative assistant “at work but in reality she works for the company not for me . So technically she doesnt work for me but for all practical intents she does .

  Suffice to say that the above proves the fruitlessness of these discussions . No matter how much good these ministries do there wll always be a reason folks will find to attack .Every single comment as is the case with Creflo’s innocent “my airplane” comment would be scutinized and I guess constitutes further proof of his greed in the critics eeyes with little regard for context or premise

  Here is the long and short of it as you rightly noted, “The Word” is what constitutes truth
  Nobody is asking you to associate with these ministries what I am asking you is that you make sure that you fully know what you are talking about before putting your barrister hat on and slamming the gavel . One observation I have made about most of the critics is that they really dont know much about the ministries they criticize. They simply go based on hearsay and half baked internet quotes devoid of context yet they scream heresy as you have done .

  In any case I really dont think there is much I can say to change your mind other than to say that as a result of these ministries
  1:) I got saved
  2) I learned to support the work of the Lord with my finances reaching the nations
  3) I have seen miraculous increase
  4) I have a great marraige
  5 ) I lstrive to live in holiness and the fear of the Lord
  6) I walk in financial integrity, I dont cheat on taxes, lie on my tax returns etc

  I could go on .. If This is the fruit of false prophets then Lord please send more false prophets !!!

  As Kenneth Hagin would say , may God’s richest and best be yours

• 20 STEVEM // Jan 7, 2008 at 10:11 am

  On poor people .

  I dont really hear of poor people sending out missonaries or of missionaries from poor nations . The Gospel is largely financed by rich folks or people from rich countries.

  I firmly believe that if Godly men and women had the wealth and the ability run the media and our political establishment our nation would be a very different place. For one thing I wouldnt have to wory about BET and MTV poisoning the minds of our youths with sex while Disney evangelizes them into Harry Potter and witchcraft

  This is why I am a firm believer in the prosperity gospel and understand the Satanic Opposition to it

  I leave you with

  Deut 1:8 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

  Since you agree that the word is final then I am sure sure you will have no problem with Deut 1:8 now will you ?

• 21 Mike // Jan 8, 2008 at 1:06 am

  Dude,
  The very fact that you are endorsing that Govt take a look at these ministries for no other reason than the fact that you have a problem with their doctrine is de-facto communism. That is the doggone point.-STEVEM

  I’m still confused by your communism assertions. I think you’re conflating my comments about the Grassley investigation with my disagreement about Creflo and others’ doctrine. The investigation of these ministries has nothing to do with their doctrine. It has everything to do with them adhering to laws regarding non-profit organizations (which they are). That’s not communism–that’s law enforcement.

  Yes, I am in support of that investigation just as I would be for any non-profit suspected of abusing their tax status. And yes, as I have spelled out, I have a problem with the doctrine of these churches. But I do not believe churches should be investigated by the govt because of their doctrine. If you re-read my post, you will see that I never take that position.

• 22 Pabs // Jan 8, 2008 at 3:40 am

  Hi Steve.

  Thanks for your reply, and again I commend you for the maturity of your response.

  Can I correct you on one little thing? You said in your previous post: “In any case I really don’t think there is much I can say to change your mind other than to say that as a result of these ministries”, and so on.

  I’m one to say that your conversion was predestined, and the work NOT of a ministry, but the Holy Spirit. All credit is to be given to the Lord as far as I’m concerned, everything else is simply a tool. Sometimes, God even uses seemingly ridiculous means to reach our hearts, or to reveal His Glory and power.

  I believe that many have been saved even in Christian Cults, or dare I say, even the Catholic Church. You can bet your bottom dollar that in the midst of so much heresy, our God is loving enough to touch the hearts of those who seek Him earnestly. Even amongst the misguided “loons” in Jones Town, I bet there were some who genuinely loved the Lord and were saved. Such people move on at some point, and mature in their relationship with the Lord, no longer falling victim to the deceptions of men.

  Another area of disagreement is the following. You said: “I don’t really hear of poor people sending out missionaries or of missionaries from poor nations”.

  Now, I find this very interesting, because here in Australia, we have MANY visiting Evangelists and missionaries from Africa, the Indian Sub-continent, Latin America (though not as many), and many other developing countries. I’m not sure if you are aware of the relatively recent phenomenon that is reverse-evangelisation. This is certainly happening in many former Christian strongholds all over Eastern and Western Europe, and let me tell you that the US needs this badly. There is a huge spiritual void in Europe, and much of the western world is following suite. These men are quite simply re-introducing the Gospel to these nations that were so instrumental in the spreading of the Gospel in the first place, (in both Godly and un-Godly fashion, e.g. the inquisition).

  I remember listening to a sermon where the American Pastor talks of a conversation between himself and a fellow American missionary, back in his early years in service. He asks “Who would you say is the greatest evangelist of our time”. The reply was something like “Well, he’s quite likely unknown by the masses, living in a jungle somewhere” etc etc. In my opinion, effective evangelism is not preaching to the saved from week to week in under the security blanket of familiarity, but impacting the lost in their territory, i.e. reaching the lost at every given opportunity under persecution if need be. I know such people, and they are extremely rare. They witness every day of their lives from dawn to dusk.

  Now I don’t know what your experience is beyond your own borders there in the US, but here in Australia and also in Europe I’ve noticed that people have the idea that Americans are very ignorant of affairs outside their own comfort zone. I am assuming here that you are American, though please correct me if I’m wrong.

  To say that only the rich are able to make any real inroads in the spreading of the gospel is rather ignorant, and says to me that you need to get out into the world and experience people who are totally devotion to God, and the blessings that come with it.

  It is such a common thing to hear Western Pentecostals speaking in envy of the CONSISTENT miraculous wonders experienced by Christians in the third world. Why is this so?? Well, my theory is that they have nothing but God, nothing there to obstruct their blessing. So to have missionaries from these places bringing such simple faith into our fattened-up, consumerist churches, is a breath of fresh air and something I’d encourage you to experience.

• 23 stevem // Jan 8, 2008 at 6:19 am

  Hey Pabs

  You said

  “Can I correct you on one little thing? You said in your previous post: “In any case I really don’t think there is much I can say to change your mind other than to say that as a result of these ministries”, and so on.

  I’m one to say that your conversion was predestined, and the work NOT of a ministry, but the Holy Spirit. All credit is to be given to the Lord as far as I’m concerned, everything else is simply a tool. Sometimes, God even uses seemingly ridiculous means to reach our hearts, or to reveal His Glory and power. ”

  Therein lies the problem at the root of many of these debates. Your comments indicate that you subscribe to the Calvinist school of doctrinal interpretation while many of the preachers criticized are “Arminian” in their doctrinal disposition.

  To keep a long story short Calvinists believe tat your lot in life is pretty much pre destined while Arminians believe that your lot in life has as much to do with you and the decisions you make as it does God. The prosperity preachers also include finacial prosperity in the arminian equation

  I really dont want to get too deeply into this topic but do want to note that it exist and is the cause of many civil wars in the Body of Christ with both sides quick to scream heresy
  See links
  http://www.the-highway.com/compare.html

  Per my comments which you find ignorant. Well while I do live in America I am Niogerian by descent and many of the “reverse evangelists” coming from South America and Africa as you noted are themeselves the fruit of western Evangelists inlcuding these six whom you do persecute

  Certainly your are beginning to see reverse evangelism but the fact remains that 85% of Gospel material be it christian literature, bibles or Missionary activity still comes out of the USA and much of it comes from these “prosperity ministries”

  As I noted before Joyce Meyer’s alone fed more than 11 Million people last years and her ministry was ble to do so because it had the resources see link

  http://www.joycemeyer.org/AboutUs/MediaRelations/whatwedo.htm

  I also know for a fact that many of these ministries are involved in things like bible smuggling to those persecuted Christiians in other countries that you claim to be concerned about

  Cheers

• 24 stevem // Jan 8, 2008 at 6:26 am

  Mike Said
  ”
  I’m still confused by your communism assertions. I think you’re conflating my comments about the Grassley investigation with my disagreement about Creflo and others’ doctrine. The investigation of these ministries has nothing to do with their doctrine. It has everything to do with them adhering to laws regarding non-profit organizations (which they are). That’s not communism–that’s law enforcement.

  Yes, I am in support of that investigation just as I would be for any non-profit suspected of abusing their tax status. And yes, as I have spelled out, I have a problem with the doctrine of these churches. But I do not believe churches should be investigated by the govt because of their doctrine. If you re-read my post, you will see that I never take that position.”

  So explain to me then why six similar ministries are chosen for what essentually amounts to a public media audit. While the senator rambles on about how “Jesus came into town on a donkey so why do preachers need a Rolls Royce”

  It’s very clear that the Senator has a doctrinal bias agaisnt these ministries.

  Furthermore we al;ready have the IRS to ionvestigate such matters . If the Seantor wants an investigation why didnt he propmpt the IRS to do so. Instead he publicly faxed letters to them with copies to media houses. What was his purpose in doing so ?

  Furthermore you said they are suspected of abusing their IRS tax status. I ask suspected by whom ? The IRS just gave Joyce Meyer a letter that she was in compliance on Oct 10 2007
  http://www.joycemeyer.org/AboutUs/MediaRelations/whatwedo.htm#IRSReview

• 25 stevem // Jan 8, 2008 at 6:32 am

  Ctd from above

  These ministries have independent auditors every year and make their info available to members so exactly whom are they suspected by other than faceless internet types who write blogs about stuff they know nothing about?

  If the Senator wants facts, the proper channels are already available, instead he chose to make this a media circus knowing fully well that these ministries as far as the media was concerend would be dead on arrival

  If the Senator feels that the IRS isnt doing a good enough job then shouldnt he be investigatijng the IRS as opposed to targetiing ministries of the same doctrinal vein ?

• 26 stevem // Jan 8, 2008 at 6:41 am

  http://bobbarr.org/default.asp?pt=newsdescr&RI=898

  Senator has no power or grounds for inquiry
  by Bob Barr
  special to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
  Wednesday, November 14, 2007 at 9:00 AM

  I am considering sending the following letter to U.S. Sen. Charles Grassley of Iowa:

  “Dear Sen. Grassley:

  I see where you recently sent letters to six ministries in four states, including my home state of Georgia, requesting detailed information on the finances of those ministries. Apparently, your concern was sparked, at least in part, by reports that these ministries and the individuals leading them might be spending monies in excess of what you believe is proper and in excess of what a tax-exempt institution is allowed.

  I commend your diligence in monitoring the funds donated to these ministries.

  Being now aware of your keen interest as a watchdog for questionable spending patterns, I would urge you to inquire into the practices of a certain individual who exhibits the following expenses that appear to indicate a lavish business lifestyle far in excess of that which his reported annual salary of $165,200 could reasonably sustain:

  • He maintains a beautifully decorated and expansive office in one of the most exclusive addresses in Washington, D.C.

  • He keeps six additional offices in the state that is his permanent declared residence.

  • He has an office staff of at least three dozen men and women.

  • His travel expenses run into the tens of thousands of dollars each year.

  • He works for a nonprofit entity that spends lavishly on all manner of programs not authorized by its charter and that are far in excess of its income each year.”

  Oh, I’m sorry, I neglected to give you the suspect person’s name. It is U.S. Sen. Charles Grassley, whose primary office is in the Hart Senate Office Building, and who maintains six additional offices in the state of Iowa.

  Obviously, Grassley is not going to investigate himself, even though there appear to be superficial questions concerning his ability to maintain a huge staff and multiple offices on a senator’s salary. And it makes about as much sense for him to use the power of his Senate office to inquire into the expenditures of a handful of pastors because they reportedly spend money on items that don’t meet his notion of legitimate expenditures.

  The fact is, the items on which the Rev. Creflo Dollar and Bishop Eddie Long of Georgia —and their colleagues in other states who have received letters of inquiry from Grassley — spend their money apparently do meet with the approval of their constituents. In this respect the ministers are just like Grassley, since, presumably, the Iowa Senator’s constituents approve of the manner in which he is spending their “donations” (even though others may take issue with how the senator spends money over which he has control).

  For both the senator and the ministers, if there were any real evidence any of them were defrauding those funding their operations, there are legitimate, clearly defined avenues of redress. Attempting to intimidate private citizens, especially those heading recognized religious institutions, however, is not among them. If the good senator believes Dollar, Long or any other minister of a tax-exempt organization is defrauding their constituents or the government, then he can — indeed, should — request that the appropriate federal agency investigate to determine if such allegations are true and if so, prosecute them.

  Additionally, if the leaders of any one of the ministers suspect in Grassley’s eyes is defrauding their donors, then those believing themselves cheated have full recourse to the courts of this land to seek redress and hold the ministers accountable.

  This is the path that those at Oral Roberts University in Oklahoma have chosen to pursue. (Interestingly, Grassley chose not to investigate Oral Roberts ministries.)

  Grassley may simply have forgotten he is no longer chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, but only the ranking minority (Republican) member. As such, he cannot himself compel any person — minister or layperson — to turn over to him detailed financial information of their income or expenses to peruse at his leisure and share with whomever he might like. The majority Democratic Party is now empowered to do that. It is hoped, in accord with long-standing precedent, including the doctrine of separation of powers, the majority will exercise sounder judgment than the ranking member.

  For now, Dollar, Long and the others should pray for the senator and simply ignore his ill-advised and unenforceable request.

  • Former congressman and U.S. Attorney Bob Barr practices law in Atlanta. Web site: http://www.bobbarr.org.

• 27 stevem // Jan 8, 2008 at 6:42 am

  http://creflodollarministries.org/Public/AboutUs/Grassley.aspx

  November, 2007

  The Honorable Max Baucus
  Chairman, Committee on Finance
  United States Senate
  511 Hart Senate Office Building
  Washington, DC 20510

  The Honorable Charles E. Grassley
  Ranking Member, Committee on Finance
  United States Senate
  135 Hart Senate Office Building
  Washington, DC 20510

  Re: World Changers Church International

  Dear Sirs:

  On behalf of World Changers Church International (the “Church”), I am writing regarding the letter my client received on November 5, 2007 from Senator Grassley inquiring into its religious practices and operations. On the same day that my client received its letter, five other churches received similar letters. We would like to draw your attention to a number of concerns that these letters raise.

  Each of the churches that received a letter from Senator Grassley, including World Changers Church International, practices a religion theology involving the “Prosperity Gospel,” a deeply held religious belief that God’s devout followers and earthly leaders will prosper and be successful in all they do, including in financial matters, as the outward expression of His favor. This belief, like any number of other religious doctrines, is grounded in Scripture.1 These six churches are part of the rich tapestry of religion in America2 and reach a combined audience of several hundred thousand worshipers. While, as is true with most religious beliefs, not all religions or denominations subscribe to the Prosperity Gospel, this country has a long tradition of celebrating—and protecting—the diversity of the religious beliefs of its citizens. That longstanding principle of tolerance is even more important in these times of strife triggered by religious differences elsewhere in this world.

  To avoid entanglement between particular churches and the government, the founders of our country erected, in the words of Thomas Jefferson, “a wall separation between Church and State”3 by enacting the free exercise and non-establishment clauses of the First Amendment. In 1984, recognizing the delicate balance between the government’s power to examine churches and the expression of religious beliefs, Senator Grassley introduced legislation that, when ultimately enacted, provided special rules with which the Internal Revenue Service (the “IRS”) must comply when examining churches. These rules, the Church Audit Procedures of section 7611 of the Internal Revenue Code,4 are designed to permit the IRS to ensure that religious organizations comply with federal tax laws and, at the same time, preserve and protect the ability of citizens to worship in accordance with their religious beliefs without fear of unwarranted government interference. Indeed, in the legislative history underlying section 7611, the Senate Finance Committee Report from 1984 outlined its rationale for the legislation: “the committee is aware of the special problems that arise when the Internal Revenue Service (or any governmental agency) examines the records of a church, including problems of separation of church and state and the special relationship of a church to its members.”5

  The Church’s first Amendment rights and the problems that section 7611 was designed to prevent are implicated by the recent request for information. While we applaud Senator Grassley’s dedication to tax law oversight and we can assure you that the church is willing to comply with a proper request for information, we believe that the IRS, through the framework of section 7611, is the appropriate governmental body to review these sensitive matters. Therefore, we respectfully request that Senator Grassley, or the full Senate Finance Committee, refer any information regarding federal tax compliance concerns to the IRS for the agency to evaluate.

  This approach is not without precedent: In the 1980’s, the late Representative Jake Pickle, then chairman of the House Ways & Means Oversight Subcommittee, chose a similar course of action when he asked the IRS to review concerns about television ministries. A referral would permit Senator Grassley and the Senate Finance Committee to discharge their obligation to oversee federal tax administration without running the risk of government entanglement in the church’s religious beliefs and practices. Moreover, in the course of an IRS review, the church would be guaranteed taxpayer privacy rights in accordance with section 6103 of the Code, further ensuring that the government would not infringe on its members’ rights to worship freely.

  If Senator Baucus, or the majority of the Senate Finance committee, believes that it is appropriate for the church to respond to Senator Grassley’s questions, then we respectfully request that the Senate Finance Committee provide an appropriate legal context for the review, as would be reflected by a formal subpoena for the information. Congress has wisely determined that religious organizations should not be subject to the same public filing requirements as other charitable organizations and, likewise, we believe that the religious doctrine and practices of a church should not be held out for the world to evaluate as a result of responding to Congressional inquiries. We are concerned, for example, that some of the information requested would not be in the public domain even if churches were required to comply with these same filing requirements as other charitable organizations. In this instance, we are acutely aware of the potential for some members of the general public to disparage or belittle the Church’s sincerely held religious beliefs, and we want to protect the Church and its members from this possibility. If a subpoena were issued, the Church and its members could be afforded certain confidentiality protections, perhaps mirroring the privacy rights of section 6103, which would reduce the likelihood of any public judgment regarding its religious beliefs.

  We appreciate your sensitivity to these issues and look forward to hearing from you. If you would like to discuss any of these issues please do not hesitate to call me.

  Sincerely,

  Marcus S. Owens

  ——————————————————————————–

  1For instance, verses frequently citied by proponents of this theological doctrine include Deuteronomy 29:9 (”Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do.”) and Psalm 1:1-3 (”Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he mediate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.”).

  2Numerous other churches, predominately Evangelical or Charismatic Christians, also practice their religion in accordance with the Prosperity Gospel.

  3Letter from Thomas Jefferson to Messer’s Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins and Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut (Jan. 1, 1802) available at http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpost.html .

  4All section references are to the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended (the “Code”).

  5S.PRT. 98-169 at 873.

• 28 Ace // Jan 8, 2008 at 12:41 pm

  Here is an interesting article that gives a short history of the “Gospel of Prosperity”, the hopes of the people who follow it, what happens to some who follow it, and why Senator Grassley is investigating these particular six ministries. Please note Eddie Long’s and Creflo Dollar’s reasons for not cooperating with the Senator.

  I am sure many believe in the “Prosperity Gospel” preached by Creflo Dollar. Many also believed and were inspired by “The Word” preached by Jimmy and Tammy Baker of PTL. But we know how it ended—Jimmy was indicted for funneling millions of the church’s dollars into his own personal account.

  I don’t know if Creflo is evading taxes or using the church’s money for his own benefit. I hope not…but it sure looks suspicious. Here’s a quote from a blogger I would say best sums up what a lot of Americans are thinking and feeling about all six ministries being investigated:

  “these guys were chosen because they have private jets, multiple Rolls and Bentleys, and stay in suites that exceed my annual income in daily rental, and don’t pay taxes on income that would cover their expenditures. And for the record I’m not Christian, and what Christians do to each other is Not My Problem, but what these guys are doing is tax fraud, which does affect me by raising my taxes to pay for what they are not.”

  The millions of dollars that Billy Graham’s ministry pulls in can probably match any ministry. Yet, he owns no Rolls or Bentleys. He does not live in a $2.5mil gated mansion. He lives well but doesn’t live in obscene opulence that would attract attention or destroy his ‘goodness’ in the eyes of God or his followers.

  If Creflo Dollar and Eddie Long are honest and truly walk with God, then they should have no problem opening up the church’s books for all to see God’s holy works. This would dispel any suspicions by his ‘own followers’ (who probably “blew the whistle”), and US taxpayers.

  No, I am not a communist—-But maybe Paul in the book of Romans was!(just kidding) Look what he had to say in Romans 13:1-7: (NLT)

  “Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. 2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. 3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. 4 The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. 5 So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience.
  6 Pay your taxes, too, for these same reasons. For government workers need to be paid. They are serving God in what they do. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: Pay your taxes and government fees to those who collect them, and give respect and honor to those who are in authority.”

  Creflo ought to consider Paul’s advice. That is: be honest, respectful of the law, pay his fair share of taxes, find some humility and modesty, and not rip off his fellow brothers and sisters to feed his lavish lifestyle.

• 29 stevem // Jan 8, 2008 at 3:27 pm

  ACE :

  Please Learn to comprehend before you write

  Your citing Jimmy Baker is meaningless and in my opinion senseless for the mere fact that there are hundreds of prosperity preachers whom havent gone to jail. So if one were to apply your silly logic then one would have to conclude that the prosperity Gospel is good because most of it’s adherents dont go to jail.

  This is akin to saying the fact that because Joe has a White Mercedes everybody who has a white car also has a Mercedes. As you can see that kind of reasoning is asinine and is best left out of sensible discussions.Citing one guy going to jail and using it to tar everyboy else Suggest that you are one of limited parochial intellect and little else.

  Your parochial acusations of Tax Fraud are simply that; “accusations”; It’s stuff people like you pull out of your collective “Pie Holes” with no shred of desire for evidence or facts . That Both Joyce Meier and Benny Hinn have been audited and found compliant by the IRS ought to put such accusations to rest but then who cares about facts when there is an inquisition to carry out? That these ministries use independent auditors to ensure compliance ought to put such nonsense to rest but again who cares for facts when there are inquisitions to make and people to crucify ? That Creflo has said he is perfectly fine with an IRS audit ought to put such nonsense to rest but then again who cares about facts when there are preachers to crucify

  Creflo Dollar and Eddie Long’s books are already open to their members . IE Those who actually support their ministries so I ask what is it to you ? Why do you need to know whats in there books ? is it your money that they are using to ride Rolls Royces and Jets ? If the 25000 members of their respective churches and hundreds of thosands of partners feel the use is legitimate again I ask what is it to you ?

  You are preaching to the choir about submitting to authority. However, That imho is merely a red herring and obfuscation of the facts at hand. We are a nations of Laws not of Men . Creflo Dollar and Eddie Long are required to submit to the Laws of the Land not the whims and caprices of busy bodied egotistiacal men on fishing expeditions whom choose to ignore the existing laws of the land while throwing their weight around. The Seantor himself is rquired to submit to the laws of the Land afterall it is from those laws that he derives his authority so you really should be preaching your sermon to him not to these ministries

  Submitting to such is called submitting to Mob Rule so please my friend stop misusing scripture. We are under no requiremnt to submit to such nonsense ! Jesus did not submit to the demands of illegitimate Phariseeical authority and As Congressman Barr said neither do these ministries need to submit to that crap.

  If the Senator wants info he can issue Subpoenas or get the IRS to do it. That will be following the laws of the land. Apotsle paul Exercised his rights as A Roman Citizen to obtain legal protection sufice to say that It is perfectly consistent with scripture for these ministries to do the same

• 30 Ace // Jan 8, 2008 at 7:23 pm

  Stevem,
  your first comment to me: “Please learn to comprehend before you comment”–sorry, Stevem, I’m doing the best I can. Everyone can’t be as erudite, smart and profound as you. Why would a man of your depth and intelligence deign himself to be on a blog
  with ‘communists’, people whose knowledge about Scripture is ‘pitiful’, and people who ‘know nothing about facts?’ Did you go to Harvard Divinity and Law School? Princeton? Oxford? Please be patient with me, I am still trying to get my GED from Wal-Mart–it’s been difficult.

  In reference to the following paragraph: You are right, there are hundreds of prosperity preachers who haven’t gone to jail. That’s a good thing for prosperity preachers. But there are some “bad apples” as Creflo said on TV. So, even though you say I am a person whose reasoning is asinine- having silly logic, parochial, “Pie Hole”, etc—Whatever names you call me won’t change my mind about Creflo. He didn’t get the nickname ‘Theft yo Dollar’ because he’s been squeaky-clean and loved by everyone.

  In any case, my silly logic tells me that Senator Grassley is going to “get” Creflo and Eddie ‘Wrong’, too. When that happens, there’s going to be a big auction in Georgia. I hope to have to have some cash by then (and my GED)– I’ve always wanted an affordable Rolls.

  Maybe we can sit together at the auction?

• 31 STEVEM // Jan 9, 2008 at 4:42 am

  Ace:
  I really dont care if you change your mind about Creflo. Just get your facts right and use logically sound reasoning patterns as opposed to mob rule and herd mentality with no regard to facts is all I ask .

  Comments such as “He didn’t get the nickname ‘Theft yo Dollar’ because he’s been squeaky-clean and loved by everyone. ” beggar belief . I mean was Jesus Loved by everyone ? Was he not called worse names? A liar a deceiever among other things ? When did being loved by everyone become the criteria for Christian Living especially when we wlive in a generation that sees the likes of Tupac Shakur, Briney Spears and Marylyn Manson as role models.? Again this is the kind of reasoning that make me wonder what page some of you are on. When did rumor innuendo and accusatiion tranlate into proof especialy as it pertains to individuals in the public sphere ?

  In any case, feel free to stick to your silly logic but at the end of the day it’s the Senator who may find himself got. He is treading into offices that he and most of you have no clue about. Believe me people acorss the globe arent flocking to Benny Hinn crusades because Benny has the gift for Gab . There is a real movement of the Spirit of God there and if some senator wants to show his clout he will ultimately find out that God sets offices and also removes them .

  So far your senator has nothing and if congressman Barr’s letter is anythig to go by he wont be getting anything.

• 32 stevem // Jan 9, 2008 at 8:00 am

  Also Ace:

  For someone who advocates submission to authority you may do well to heed your own advice

  As the Apostle Paul said

  1 Timothy 5:19Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

  Why are you so eager to receive accusations against these elders ?

  Furthermore, addressing leaders in a mocking tone using terms such as “Theft Yo Dollar” or “Eddie Wrong” is as anti-Christ as it comes. It reeks of the spirit of rebellion which sadly enough appears to be the trademark of this generation.

• 33 Ace // Jan 9, 2008 at 6:50 pm

  Stevem,
  As quoted by you: “1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

  Why are you so eager to receive accusations against these elders ?

  Furthermore, addressing leaders in a mocking tone using terms such as “Theft Yo Dollar” or “Eddie Wrong” is as anti-Christ as it comes. It reeks of the spirit of rebellion which sadly enough appears to be the trademark of this generation.”

  Stevem, you have selected one obscure biblical verse from the KJV to make your case for Creflo. You are like some disingenuous defense lawyer–using ‘anything,’no matter how weak– to save his guilty client.

  In plain English, that verse says, “19Don’t listen to any charge against a church leader, unless at least two or three people bring the same charges.”(CEV)

  Well, I think we can safely say that more than “two or three” people have accused Creflo of wrong doings. In fact, that’s why Sen. Grassley is requesting information from the “holy prosperous six”–there have been too many complaints about their outrageous “love of money” lifestyles. BTW, since we are on the first book of Timothy, have you read 1 Timothy 6: 6-10, which warns about the “Love of Money”?…

  “ 6 Yet true godliness with contentment is itself great wealth. 7 After all, we brought nothing with us when we came into the world, and we can’t take anything with us when we leave it. 8 So if we have enough food and clothing, let us be content.

  9 But people who long to be rich fall into temptation and are trapped by many foolish and harmful desires that plunge them into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And some people, craving money, have wandered from the true faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows.” (NLT)

  Ministers who claim to be messengers of God, drive Rolls/ Bentleys, fly private jets, live in multi-million dollar gated mansions, have lavish apartments in NY, fur coats, jewelry, etc—are exhibiting behaviors of shameless greed and arrogance. I find it difficult to discern the difference between the lavish flamboyant lifestyle of Creflo and that of a pimp: They both idolize money and flaunt it; both go against the teachings of the Bible; and both display anti-Christ behaviors.

  You accuse me of ‘mocking’ your leader. I don’t consider Creflo very much of a leader. Black ministers lead to ’spiritual freedom’ instead of ‘materialistic imprisonment’. You know the saying: “There are Black Leaders who lead, but there are blacks who lead blacks on.” Creflo is the latter.

  I know what I see, what my heart tells me, and what my mind thinks. But maybe I will have to eat my words when Creflo cooperates with Grassley and show the “facts” of his holy innocence? (I doubt it.)

  Finally, you really ought to stop your “mob rule” crying. It won’t save Creflo’s “Pie Hole”(to use your word). He twists the Word of God to prey on the hopes and fears of ‘vulnerable’ people who are predominantly Black. That is a form of black-on-black crime, which the Black community does not need–it already has plenty.

• 34 STEVEM // Jan 10, 2008 at 5:00 am

  ACE:
  I really have no desire to get into doctrinal issues and the very fact that you refer to any verse as obscure only shows that you are one of those who tends to put different amounts of weight on whatever bible verse you deem fit in order to buttess your position. No wonder you ignore thousands of verses that promise financial prosperity afterall they can be arbitrarily deemed “obscure” in your mind.

  Whether or not you consider Creflo a leader is your prerogative and meaningless within the context of this discussion. The facts is many people do. Many in the black community dont consider Senator Grassley a leader either does that then negate your initial assertion that Creflo needs to submit to authority or do I smell a Hypocrite ?

  Also, the letter killeth but the spirit gives life. stop being legalistic and for your own sake please do away with translations such as the CEV. They might as well be commentaries they are not translations and they show little respect
  for the original languages. But then again such veresions ar made precisely for people who deem bible passages “obscure”

  The Phrase “two or three witnesses” doesnt literally mean Two Or three people . It’s a Jewish Colloquialism which you find all over the OT. You find Jesus using the same phrase when Jesus says ” When Two or Three Gather in my name” in Matthew 18

  The focus is not on the number of people but the Strength of the Evidence. In any case, by your own earlier worlds you really dont have a clue if Creflo is guilty or not. Even the Senator has said he doesnt know that there is any wrongdoing
  So tell me exactly what the threshhold is for your two or three witnesses have been established ?

  The Senator himself has said that this is a fishing expedition you yourself meerely suspect guilt and cant present evidence. The little evidence that does exist coming from the IRS itself about two of the six ministries proves them innocent and Creflo has given a very sound and logical nd legal reason why he wont comply so your two or three witnesses SIMPLY doesnt apply.

  In any case I have no thirst fo meaningless race based discourse henc I wont waste my time on your diatribe on black and black and crime bla bla bla. I leave such argumenst for small minds

• 35 Pabs // Jan 10, 2008 at 8:19 am

  Hi all.

  Great to see everyone is getting along

  I have a question for you Steve, just out of curiosity, (and you don’t have to answer this). Are you wealthy? If not, are you an AMWAY distributor, by chance? Just kidding.

  I find your support of the prosperity doctrine extremely intriguing, especially considering that almost every bible scholar, theologian, and pastor outside Pentecostal circles that I’ve run across or whose articles I’ve read, seem to oppose it passionately.

  Maybe it’s because we Pentecostals have it all together and they lack rthe “Spirit”. (Sorry if I’m overly sarcastic. I picked this up living with the Kangaroos here in OZ)

  My experience of the New Testament, and its teachings on the acquisition of wealth seem to play heavily against the Prosperity Dogma. Obviously there is much room for debate, as is the case when interpreting other areas of scripture, but I find that teachings regarding earthly wealth are unquestionably black and white in the New Testament. If this is not the case, then the only conclusion is that we have contradictions in the Word of God.

  You all know the verses I’m talking about, and many of them have already been posted on this blog.

  Steve mentioned earlier about the tax collector Zacchaeus, almost as if to make the point that Jesus in some way or another approved of his wealth and lifestyle by having fellowship with him. Well, let us read on and see exactly what occurred later that day- “But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

  He became a Communist!!!

  Wasn’t Jesus an amazing man, he would always do the unexpected. Here is this wealthy man that everybody ruled out as a “sinner”, yet Jesus had the grace to fellowship with him in his home.

  Now, this story in no way reflects any kind of favour towards the rich on the part of the Lord; on the contrary, Zaccheus in is own words chose to make an about-face in his life, “I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

  Only then did the Lord say,” Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what WAS LOST.”

  Now, what became of Zaccheus after this experience is open for debate. What we know is that salvation came to his home as a result of a major change in his life.

  There are parallels here with the story of the adulteress in John 8. Here is a woman condemned by the law, and judged by her brethren. Jesus comes along and does the unexpected, is gracious towards her, and a life changing miracle occurs. He then says, “Go now and leave your life of sin.” The common denominator is the CHANGE in these people. They turn from a lifestyle of sin.

  Steve, you also mentioned that Jesus had a house, according to John 1:39. Well, if he did we are given no clues about what kind of structure it was. For all we know it could have been a cave. I’m sure the likes of Jesse Duplantis would have us believe that it was a 10×4, including a triple garage with a Rolls Royce and Harley parked inside.

  I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume these were portions of verses written down in the back of your Bible during a Creflo or Hinn crusade. I would encourage further reading though, because it’s too easy to make a biased point by using half-truths. For crying out loud, you can even justify slavery by creatively manipulating scripture. There is much truth in deception, and that’s what makes the doctrines of this age so perilous. “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge”, Hosea 4, verse 6. This is certainly the danger in the “Word faith” movement”, where everything is “spirit” with very little room for wisdom, ( or simple logic for that matter).

  Funny enough, I’d really love to know your views on Tithing. This is an area of fierce debate across denominations, and even amongst believers in the Pentecostal movement.

  One love.

• 36 Pabs // Jan 10, 2008 at 9:09 am

  Here are some verses in the New Testament regarding true Christian prosperity. Please read them carefully.

  He will feed us and shelter us-
  Mathew 6 verses 31 to33. “Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
  (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (i.e. the above).

  He will supply all our NEEDS, including our capacity to be charitable-

  Phillipians 4 verse 19. “But my God shall supply all your NEEDS according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus”.

  2 Corinthians 9 verse 8. “And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all SUFFICIENCY in all things, may abound to EVERY GOOD WORK”

  Yes, I believe in the prosperity Gospel; not the Dollar, Hinn, Duplantis etc etc version, but according to the Gospel of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

• 37 stevem // Jan 10, 2008 at 9:50 am

  Thanks Pabs

  As You noted there is much room for debate on doctrine and after ten years of debating on Christian Forums I have come to the conclusiion that basically people take their positions and then use sciptures to justify it rather than the other way round

  Suffice to say I have basically adopted a live and let live let God be the judge stance afterall there are literally hundreds of Christian denominations whom I dont see eye to eye with but I let live

  Per your Zaccheus example the point remaisn that Jesus didnt ask him to quit his profession he simply asked him to be generous with his giving and to operate in honesty and integrity. Jesus did not tell him that he was too lavish or that his wealth was obscene. Afterall this was the same Jesus that turned water into fine wine a miracle of pure luxury when water alone would have sufficed if one were to go by the logic of the anti-prosperity crowd

  Do remeber my good friend that when God created Adam he placed him in the Garden of Eden which in the Hebrew means LUXURY.The Bible goes on to say that in the land of Eden there was Gold, Onyx and beauty and GOD CALLED IT GOOD

  Point was that Luxury was God’s Idea not man’s so i am not sure why the anti-prosperity cult get their undies hunched up when Servants of God are blessed of God and simply foretaste a litlle bit of heaven on earth

  Not to belabor the point but there is no point in your telling me that you disagree with Creflo, Copeland, Hinn et al. I personally could care less if you do. That is not the point as far as I am concerened. My Point is that doctrinal disagreement is one thing but accusations of ccriminal wrongdoing without evidence is another

  To answer your question as to whether or not I am wealthy well let’s just say that I help other people pay rent, I have helped people put their kids thru private schools. I give thousands to my church every month(Yes I believe in Tithing) and I couldnt do any of that before empracing the Propserity message. In fact I was peniless and Facing a Felony Charge at the time

  So my good friend I do abound to every good work just as Hinn, Dollar, Price, Duplatins etc teach

• 38 stevem // Jan 10, 2008 at 10:00 am

  Pabs:
  On Tithing

  I dont particlularly care to get into the topic of tithing but I will say this :

  The long and short of it is that Abraham Tithed to Melchizedek whom represented an eternal priesthood hence we should do same since Jesus Priesthood continues eternally

  Hebrews 7:8 tells us that
  8And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

  As you can see the verbage is in the present continuous tense which tells me that Tithing went on at the time of writing of the book of Hebrews in the NT . This puts to rest all claims that Tithing was an OT practice

  Those who dont believe in tithing are free not to do so. As for me and my house we WILL TITHE

  Cheers

• 39 stevem // Jan 10, 2008 at 11:21 am

  PABS:
  You said
  ”
  Steve, you also mentioned that Jesus had a house, according to John 1:39. Well, if he did we are given no clues about what kind of structure it was. For all we know it could have been a cave. I’m sure the likes of Jesse Duplantis would have us believe that it was a 10×4, including a triple garage with a Rolls Royce and Harley parked inside.

  I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume these were portions of verses written down in the back of your Bible during a Creflo or Hinn crusade. I would encourage further reading though, because it’s too easy to make a biased point by using half-truths. For crying out loud, you can even justify slavery by creatively manipulating scripture. There is much truth in deception, and that’s what makes the doctrines of this age so perilous. “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge”, Hosea 4, verse 6. This is certainly the danger in the “Word faith” movement”, where everything is “spirit” with very little room for wisdom, ( or simple logic for that matter).”

  I mentioned that Jesus had a house as a rebuttal to someone who categorically stated that he didnt yet you accuse “me” of “Lack of Knowledge”? Then you accuse me of “half truths” while projecting on me and the WOF positions that we have never taken .

  How Laughable ? What is creatively manipulating scripture about stating what scripture clearly states. If anybody is doing any manipulating it is you.

• 40 Ace // Jan 10, 2008 at 12:11 pm

  Stevem,
  It’s good to hear from you, it’s been a long time since you’ve written. Judging from your criticisms of me, your understanding of the bible is infallible and indisputable.

  I can’t claim that, I still have a long way to go in understanding the Word of God. I am still ‘poor in spirit’, so my interpretations may not meet with your approval.

  Nevertheless, I find that as I grow– spiritually– my understanding of parts of the bible deepens. I frequently find myself in the process of going from obscurity–to perceived clarity– to yet even deeper understanding.

  Apparently I haven’t advanced to your level of understanding about “financial prosperity” as a ‘pathway’ to God. In fact, I still haven’t been able to find the “thousands of verses” in the bible you claim promise financial prosperity.

  Please help me with this because no matter what I read in the bible, I usually end up in a heartfelt state of reflection, contemplation and prayer. However, from your apparent vast Christian knowledge, I am missing ‘thousands’ of verses about ‘financial wealth and prosperity’.

  I feel so stupid–here I thought the bible was a book of instructions about developing “spiritual” growth, wealth and prosperity for the sake of the soul– but, according to you, the bible is actually a book with thousands of verses about “financial” growth, wealth and prosperity for the sake of the body.

  Again, will you help me find those “thousands of verses” so that I can get on the right path? I mean, I don’t want to waste my life–wrongly studying parts of the bible. I want to read the ‘right’ part so I can join you and Creflo in Heaven. So, can you help me?

  Re: Creflo, the Senator, and the IRS….As you have said in your commentary, “Creflo has given a very sound and logical nd legal reason why he wont comply so your two or three witnesses SIMPLY doesnt apply.”

  Well. Your statement certainly vindicates Creflo doesn’t it? Hence, he deserves all the money, Rolls, mansions, apartments, and jets he can get his innocent hands on– without taxation.

  Re: your last statement…. you made it clear that ‘there is no need to waste your time discussing black-on-black crime, etc because that’s meaningless and is for small minds’.

  So, I’ll end here.

• 41 stevem // Jan 10, 2008 at 4:16 pm

  ACE:

  Please stop the disingenuity and the intellectual dishonesty

  I said the bible is full of verses on financial prosperity

  You said

  [i]I feel so stupid–here I thought the bible was a book of instructions about developing “spiritual” growth, wealth and prosperity for the sake of the soul– but, according to you, the bible is actually a book with thousands of verses about “financial” growth, wealth and prosperity for the sake of the body.

  Again, will you help me find those “thousands of verses” so that I can get on the right path? I mean, I don’t want to waste my life–wrongly studying parts of the bible. I want to read the ‘right’ part so I can join you and Creflo in Heaven. So, can you help me?
  [/i]

  At no point did I say that Financial Prosperity was for the sake of the body , neither did I say it had any bearing on going to heaven.

  The above is a classic example of how you people build strawmen to knock down while arguing with yourselves. You project your own ignorant opinions and suppositions on other people and then assume it’s bible when it’s not.

  Not one of the people who preaches prosperity that you attack teach that it is for the body . the overwhelming theme is that it is to be used for establishing the kingdom that is why I have repeatedly emphasized the millions of people that people like Joyce Meiers fed last year and the Crusades such as those of Reinhardt Bohnkes in Africa which Kenneth Copeland almost singlehandedly finances.

  But alas you everlook all that and continue to make the arbitrary assertion that I implied in any way that we believe in financial prosperity for fleshly purposes. There is a huge logical gap between saying that the bible preaches financial prosperity and saying that financial prosperity is merely for fleshly purposes. But i am sure you know that.

  Due to your intellectual dishonesty I find your claims of reading the bible for “spiritual growth” hard to reconcile . If anything ISAIAH 57 comes to mind (Ye fast (and study) for strife and debate)

• 42 Ace // Jan 10, 2008 at 5:54 pm

  Stevem,
  Your exact words:
  “No wonder you ignore thousands of verses that promise financial prosperity afterall they can be arbitrarily deemed “obscure” in your mind.”

  Do you see the ‘phrase thousands of verses’ and ‘promise financial prosperity’?’ I didn’t make those phrases up–you actually wrote them. So, I wasn’t intellectually dishonest about that.

  It is true you didn’t exactly say financial prosperity was for the ’sake of the body’ or that it had any bearing on heaven. I assumed that because I could not see any other reason for it. So please, clarify for me–What is the promise of financial prosperity for, if not for the body? If it has no bearing on heaven, then what’s it for?

• 43 Ace // Jan 10, 2008 at 10:46 pm

  Hello everyone, below are two videos you might find interesting.

  This is an interview with Rev. Dollar on Fox News about the investigation of his church.

  Here is an interview with Senator Grassley about the megachurch investigation.

• 44 STEVEM // Jan 11, 2008 at 12:09 am

  Ace:
  The very fact that AL Sharpton opposes the prosperity gospel ought to make any Bible believing person support it

  Take the time to read my posts. I have already told you what Financial prosperity is for over and over again. For instance I have cited Joyce Meier feeding over 11 million people last year, I have cited various outreaches which these ministries single handedly fund such as Prison Ministries etc . I know firtshand that these ministres provide water for villages in Africa . I could go on . The so called lavish spending taht these ministries are accused of is like a drop in the bucket relatve to the amount they give out to different causes.

  In the clip you provided, Creflo Dollar himself tells you what the Lear Jet is for IE to help his busy travel schedule. As a former Management consultant I have slept in enough airports and had too many flights delayed or cancelled along with baggage lost to appreciate the fact that a preacher with hundreds of speaking engagements across the globe does need a Jet to do what God called them to do

  You asked for some prosperity verses; well
  Again let me remind you of the verse you reminded me of this morning IE

  1 tim 5
  19Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

  What you failed to mention was that VS 17 Aand 18 before 19 were talking about money

  17Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
  18For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
  19Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

  Note that Paul was talking about honoring preachers wi